Alex Rosu m-a trezit de dimineata cu un sms prin care imi povestea ca Saddam tocmai a fost spanzurat. Aveam de mult o opinie bine formata cu privire la judecarea, condamnarea si planuita executie a lui Saddam. Acum e timpul sa mi-o exprim.
Cred ca in momentul de fata este clar tuturor ca acest simulacru de justitie este mana administratiei Bush. Ca de altfel si haosul din Iraq. Ceea ce este mai putin clar - si este foarte periculos ca este asa - este faptul ca felul in care a fost administrata dreptatea in cazul de fata creeaza un precedent foarte trist si nebanuit de riscant. Practic, prin deferirea lui Saddam catre o curte domestica de justica, mai mult decat atat, un tribunal "special", toate mecanismele justitiei internationale, care de-abia ce au fost incropite prin mult artizanat si multa vointa politica, au fost serios subminate. Ce autoritate sa mai aiba Curtea Penala Internationala cand suspectii de crime impotriva umanitatii - fie ei si dovediti in ochii opiniei publice - sunt luati de trupele unui tert regim, trimisi in mainile unui sistem judiciar de departe nefunctional, judecati vreo doua luni (adica cam jumate dintr-un proces de divort fara complicatii), si apoi spanzurati?
Un studiu realizat de John Hopkins University arata clar ca standardele democratice ale americanilor au ucis 650000 de irakieni in haosul ce a urmat invaziei din Irak. Adica de 3 ori MAI MULTI decat a ucis dictatura lui Saddam. Si cam toata lumea a priceput asta. Dupa dezastrul general din Iraq, publicul american a inteles ca justitia nu se face cu barda si cu joarda, dupa cum ii trazneste presedintelui sau sfatuitorilor sai. Omenirea se chinuie de ani de zile sa asigure standarde si norme, sa dea previzibilitea si formalism legilor. De la dreptul de intrare in razboi pana la eliminarea pedepsei capitale.
Ce e mai trist este ca, in privinta pedepsei capitale, publicul american mai crede inca, naiv si avid, in paine si circ. Vorbeam cu unul din profii mei care imi spunea ca multimea ("the mob" - pentru care din pacate nu gasesc echivalentul in romana) vrea pedeapsa capitala. America asculta multimea, hence America e democratica. Europa, un cuib al tiraniei elitelor, nu asculta multimea. In Europa, cativa guvernanti au impus un standard umanist "from above" - care cerea, printre altele, abolirea pedepsei capitale - care in timp a ajuns sa fie sustinut si de catre multime.
Screw democracy! Multimea e proasta, e fundamental proasta, si e ok daca ea e convinsa - cu un duh al blandetii mai mult sau mai putin prezent - ca ceea ce gandeste e prost, si ca exista niste standarde universale ale umanitatii, niste drepturi ale omului, niste norme kantiano-iluministe de croire a dreptatii. M-am saturat de relativisme culturale & co. Si, ca sa fie clar si conclusiv, sunt damn proud ca patria morala si intelectuala imi e Europa.
Un trail al executiei lui Saddam in NYTimes.
Saturday, December 30, 2006
(Ne)democratica spanzurare
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Sunt curioasa sa vad daca discutiile de pe TV vor trata subiectul judecarii sale si maniera in care s-a facut. Oricum, nice writing...as always :-)
finally some real morning coffee material :P
va foarte multumesc, domnita corina!
corina, permite-mi sa-mi exprim grija iar pentru un pattern pe care il vad in ceea scrii - parca imi rezoneaza multe chestii de aici exact cu gandirea comunistilor pe care ii condamnai atat de puternic acum ceva vreme tot aici pe blog.
Acum, trecand la domnul Saddam Hussein - procesul a durat aproximativ 10 luni, nu 2, in 2 luni s-a judecat doar apelul. Sunt sigur ca dintr-o perspectiva a dreptului international, ceea ce s-a intamplat in acest caz este regretabil, pe de alta parte, o administratie ca cea a domnului Bush s-a pozitionat de mult deasupra unor astfel de probleme... "mundane", negasind un termen mai bun pentru in aceasta ora a diminetii.
Domnul Hussein trebuia judecat pentru crimele sale, si trebuia sa i se acorde o pedeapsa, aici suntem cu totii de acord; acum - problema cu Curtea Internationala este ca practic US a fost puterea care l-a inlaturat pe domnul Hussein de la putere, nu te poti astepta ca ei sa il dea pe mana vreunui tribunal international spre judecare, cand poate mai bine din glob a criticat aspru atacul asupra Irakului.
scuze pentru cei care au vazut postul in prima lui forma... 650000 victime irakiene = de 3 ori MAI MULT decat irakienii ucisi de Saddam
@alex rosu - imi pare rau, dar chiar nu vad acele pattern-uri comuniste in gandirea mea; daca mi le arati mai clar, le putem dezbate; altfel, eu critic ceea ce s-a intamplat, primo, din punct de vedere filosofic (sunt impotriva pedepsei capitale, si pentru asta vezi intreaga problematia universalismului drepturilor omului v relativismul cultural), secundo, din punct de vedere juridic (vezi administrarea justitiei cnf statului ICC). Singurul motiv pentru care s-au comis abuzurile de procedura care s-au comis este ca americanii l-au vrut spanzurat, si pentru a-si implementa viziunea lor asupra lumii si a vietii si a mortii. Daca era judecat de o curte internationala, bag mana in foc ca ar fi fost condamnat la inchisoare pe viata si, desi procesul ar fi fost mai lung, ar fi fost judecat pentru toate crimele comise, si s-ar fi facut lumina in multe chestuni; acum practic, el a fost judecat si executat pentru moartea acelor 150 de oameni, nu pentru tot ceea ce a comis; si trebuie sa recunosti ca exercitarea justitiei in absenta acuzatului e mult mai putin sonora decat ar fi in prezenta lui.
mai - ideea e ca nu o coalitie internationala in adevaratul sens al cuvantului a atacat irakul, nu o coalitie internationala l-a indepartat de la putere, si nu o coalitie internationala l-a recapturat; tu sa fii in locul US, l-ai da din mana? Nu spun ca e bine, doar ca era de asteptat.
Apoi - ma ingrijoreaza sincer ideile conform carora "multimea e fundamental proasta" etc etc. Genul asta de gandire duce la idei de genul "we know better", noi stim mai ce-i mai bine pentru ei, ar fi mai bine sa facem direct asta; in comunism in Romania, partidul era detinatorul tuturor adevarurilor supreme..
Multimea nu e cu adevarat proasta, si chiar daca asa ar fi pentru un moment - spune-mi, who's to blame for that? Oricum - multimea nu e proasta, si pe masura ce Internetul devine din ce in ce mai folosit, si unelte precum bloguri, videobloguri, podcasturi si altele sunt folosite din ce in ce mai mult, multimea va dovedi ca nu e chiar proasta.
acum, revenind la pedeapsa aplicata domnului Hussein - din foarte multe puncte de vedere, si eu ma opun pedepsei cu moartea cu tarie; iar ce s-a intamplat cu procesul nu inseamna ca "americanii l-au vrut spanzurat, si pentru a-si implementa viziunea lor asupra lumii si a vietii si a mortii", ci pentru ca "administratia Bush" l-a vrut spanzurat etc. etc.
Sunt foarte multi americani (not to mention new yorkers) care nu sunt de acord cu pedeapsa capitala.
Aia cu multimea era o ironie bine punctata a Corinei si nu o generalizare. E referitoare la ignoranta unui bulk de americani votanti. Acum, aceasta realitate nu poti s-o negi. Daca acest tip de sondaj cu pedeapsa capitala ar fi fost facut in Europa ar fi iesit foc si para.
Totusi daca USenii spun ca au inceput un (Un)Holy War to attain Pax Magna atunci s-au pus ca niste Supermeni in fruntea lumii si au devenit spokepersons/cruciati ai umanitatii [as pompous as that may sound]. Drept urmare nu puteau sa-l judece pe Saddam la ei in batatura, pentru ca singura scuza pe care au folosit-o ar deveni nula. Consider faptul ca n-a primit un proces international Saddam ca pe o mare greseala tactica a americanilor.
Corina n-are nimic comunist in ce scrie [buna dimineata], e o opinia ei argumentata si perspectiva de universalitate in care crede ceea ce e departe de a apartine doar unei ideologii politice.
Cat despre bloguri si comunitate si all that jazz, cate bloguri proaste stii? Dar bune? E o diferenta calitativa imensa, in momentul in care te remarci in "multime", incetezi sa mai faci parte din multime. Deci e destul de paradoxal demersul.
Nu TOTI americanii l-au vrut spanzurat, dar polurile graiesc despre majoritate. Deci humane thinking? Oh, please.
Ma uit acum la tv si vad o negresa grasa care zice ca saddam a scapat prea usor. Spanzurarea trebuia sa fie publica. O alta ii tine isonul si inca un barbat isi exprima regretul pentru lipsa televizarii in direct a spanzuratorii. Pot sa numesc USA, tara marelui circ! Si sincer mi se face scarba.
Pe irakienii care se bucura, sa zicem ca ii inteleg... asa cum se bucurau si romanii dupa ce ceausescu a fost impuscat. Pedeapsa capitala si reactiile de dupa nu scot la iveala decat partea urata a omului.
Ma intreb daca irakienii ar fi la fel de fericiti si daca bush ar fi spanzurat?
si alex... faptul ca US l-a inlaturat de la putere ii ofera lui Bush drept de proprietate asupra lui Sadam? Nu sunt de acord cu ideea ca noi i-am venit de hac, noi ii venim de hac pana la sfarsit. Bush a declarat ca moartea lui Sadam este un pas inainte catre democratie. Asta e democratie? Cine ii confera lui dreptul sa influenteze procesul si sa realizeze democratie in acest fel? Finders keepers?
oh deary me, communists are upon us. Ninjas too.
Saddam Hussein a fost gasit intr-o groapa. A fost detinut si judecat. Nu intr-un tribunal international, (de preferat unul ONU ca in cazul genocidului din Rwanda '95), cum ar fi fost normal, dupa parerea mea ci intr-un tribunal irakian, parte a unei administratii impuse de masina de razboi americana.
sa zicem ca e acceptabil. Ceea ce e COMPLET INACCEPTABIL e transformarea unui dictator, in esenta un criminal, intr-un martir prin executia sa ba chiar intr-un erou musulman prin executia sa "pe furis" care, vb lui oscar wilde "reminds us of the worst excesses of the french revolution". Nu era Sadddam in chiloti rosii de pe coperta the Sun mai putin mandru, mai putin simbolic decat sadam mandru, cu streangul de gat? Un saddam care scrie carti proaste in inchisoare pana moare de inima rea, un saddam de care se face misto cu deceniile, now that is closure !
Musiu rosu, nu stiu cat din comunism ai prins tu dar ma hazardez spunand ca nu ai prins cu mult mai mult decat mine. Si asta se vede la tine(la fel ca la mine) in tendinta de cry communist la orice.
Disparitia subita a dusmanilor statului in toiul noptii precum si difuzarea executiilor tin mai mult de "minutele de ura" din 1984 decat de realitatea politica mondiala, or so we thought.
Sunt de acord cu tine intr-un singur loc si anume ca nu e "the american people " de vina ci "the american administration" desi presedintele si suita sa sunt o consecinta directa a sufragiului poporului.
pedeapsa cu moartea e o idee mult prea cretina ca sa fie discutata acilea. S-au scris carti si s-au tinut liturghii, ce naiba mai putem spune?
Dar ce m-a zgandarit pe mine e mentalitatea ta de ev mediu "america i-a dat in cap, america sa-l spanzure"! Amice, nu traim in starea naturala a lui Hobbes, men are not wolves anymore. Avem LEGI, si NU poti sa-mi spui ca putem sa executam oameni daca nu ne place de mufa lor. Administratia americana exact asta a facut. Amin. Idi Amin
Desi imi calc pe inima cu tenesii cu crampoane, nu pot sa nu-i dau dreptate lui Murphy. Ca bine le zice..
Inclusiv matematic, multimile sunt in esenta proaste. Proaste prin faptul ca li se pot anticipa usor reactiile la stimuli. Legea numerelor mari din statistica sustine aceasta ipoteza. Cu cat numarul incercarilor/obiectelor este mai mare, cu atat probabilitatea se ransforma in certitudine.
Nu poti elimina dictatura si crimele prin crime.
Draga Corina,
Spanzurare in preajma anului nou, abia s-a ridicat bine aburul din cadavrul de curan nemailasat sa inspire, ca sa spun asa, se pare ca e ceva meprizabil in legatura cu chestia asta, dintr-un motiv sau altul, se pare ca nu in legatura cu persoana unui om, ce ar fi de numit o substanta primara, adevarata. Ca Milosevic, sa zicem, care a murit de bunavoie (umana au ba), mai mult sau mai putin, iar pentru care ar fi gratia justitiei pamantene, bietul dictator nu a apucat sa vada justitia facuta in cazul lui, in oricare fel sau directie. Sa fi fost vreo sase ani de proces. Justitia internationala e cool, probabil prea cool pentru condamnare. Nu vreau sa spun ca asta e un argument, dar e un contraexemplu rezonabil. Altfel, banuiesc ca mai cantaresc si afinitatile elective, iar juramintele de credinta nu stau - in cazul meu - cu vreun mecanism international, iar o recomandare de bun-simt sceptic este ca data viitoare cand afirmi pre-eminenta justitiei internationale sa explici, macar pentru curiozitatea mea prinsa in flagrant de ignoranta, crima continua, juridic vorbind, ce e atat de cool la justitia internationala si cu ce palmares vine sa convinga inimile (desi, dixit Plesu, pana in modernitatea in forma ei irationalista, atat in Grecia, cat si in India si Europa si vechiul testament - vezi cartea lui Iov, de altfel relevanta discutiei -, inima era facultatea cunoasterii si inteligentei), daca nu mintile, noastre.
Despre americani, mi se pare lipsit de gust sa ii injuri, ma bucur ca macar tu te abtii de la flegma si limbaj frust, mai ales ca - eu - imi - mie - rezerv mefienta fata de condamnari in bloc (afara de cazul unei istorii verificabile, pentru ca acolo nu e un bloc de oameni, ci de fapte, care numai ele sunt de judecat) ale numelor oarecum de oameni. Administratia Bush este un lucru ciudat, dar nu as face-o responsabila de moartea lui Saddam, nu pentru ca as scoate-o nevinovata, departe de mine (departe si de Henry Fonda in 12 oameni furiosi al lui Sidney Lumet, de altfel, si asta inseamna ceva...), ci simplu pentru ca as vrea ceva mai mult decat pamfletul Corinei (si mai Corina, tu, furioasa pe o entitate ne-corporeala? Firea ta graseiata, mondenitatea post-moderna - pentru ce? Merita Bush fuhrohr-ul?). Iar cel mai putin dintre toate poate fi sustinuta acuzatia despre atat de multii morti - oamenii aia sunt numai prea fericiti sa se omoare intre ei (desi as prefera sa pun in dubiu pana si posibilitatea de a-i numi impreuna pentru altceva decat scopuri formale), asa cum erau numai prea fericiti sa fie oprimati de l'enfant terrible du moyen orient, the hangman, as of late, S 'the kurd-killer' H.
Daca vrem paralele - cum e la moda de o vreme - cu Vietnam, sunt mai ales in aceea ca populatiei ii place mai degraba tirania decat democratia, anume atat de mult incat prefera si anarhia sangeroasa inspre tiranie relaxanta democratiei. (Chit ca acolo, in V, vina nu e numai a lui Kennedy - desi mai ales -, nici numai a lui Johnson - ditto -, cu siguranta nu a lui Nixon - cel mai putin, desi e luat de tap ispasitor, el fiind cel care a si scos trupele de acolo... -, ci incepe cu ultimii ani, tristi si comatosi, ai lui Eisenhower.) Macelurile nu sunt responsabilitate americana, iar daca sau nu interventia e cool, nu cred ca e cazul sa discutam, pentru ca oricare ar fi raspunsul, nu afecteaza judecata morala. Oamenii aia sunt clar iresponsabili de propria-le soarta, care situatie nu e vina americanilor (desi e fapt stiut cat au investit in Saddam in ultimi 20 de ani...). Totul poate ca e regretabil - si eu sustin ca nu e -, dar vina morala e de dispensat in prima instanta la nivelul populatiei participante, iar intr-o instanta secunda intre victimele-calai si calaii-victime din factiunile in lupta. Nu as echivala asta cu victimele, sugerez doar ca vinovatii pentru cadavrele numite emfatic de Corina sunt altundeva decat in Washington sau SUA in bloc, probabil chiar in si inca in Irak, daca va intrebati ce fac, sansele sunt ca omoara mai departe multumesc foarte mult...
Dar Vientamul (apud Paul Johnson) a fost o afacere de imagine in stil Kennedy (dupa umilinta din Cuba, in stilul cursei spatiale, in care victoriile initiale au fost tot sovietice), in timp ce Irak este motivat mai ales economic (si continua o serie de incompetente de politica externa britanic-american-(germane-)americane vechi deja de 100 de ani, din vremea cand plictiseala imperiala tragea granite cu desenul pe hartie, indiferent de geografia demografica/politica). E cool ca inevitabila cadere a pretului la petrol va aduce procente de popularitate democratilor (desi ii dispretuiesc), imediat ce filiera irakiana va fi pusa din nou in lucru. Dar nu cred ca vom afla - lucru mai interesant decat victimele lui Saddam, fie-mi iertata ireverenta - cine a a dorit sistarea productiei irakiene. Pe de alta parte, interesant ar fi la nivelul administratiei de injurat furtul masiv - in care cuiul care doare e marca Halliburton/Cheney - pentru care razboiul a fost pierdut. Oameni care au vrut atat de mult sa fure incat au fost dispusi sa piarda razboiul sunt implicati aici, in cunostinta de cauza, asa ca mai mult decat Bush personal, astia ar fi de cautat, pentru scopurile unui pamflet ornat macar cu fapte...
Acum va fi fiind dreptate sa il judeci pe proaspatul trup (cuvantul inseamna la originea lui slava cadavru, ca sa tina jocul de cuvinte) pentru toate crimele, dar aici am sa pledez pentru jurisprudenta pragmatica (uite cum a fost condamnat Al Capone, daca un exemplu american e inca prizabil). Ca investigatia are sa faca lumina in cazuri obscure altfel de nedovedit mi se pare implauzibil cel putin, iar despre ce s-a intamplat, e in firea occidentului sa aiba istorici si alti fetisisti ai faptelor care sa scoata si asta la iveala, vei auzi probabil despre asta pe Discovery intr-un an sau doi (ceea ce e probabil mai putin decat ar fi luat procesul...).
Banuiesc ca, dupa atat de departata o trecere a discutiei de de und era in cu totul alta parte, asta ar fi paragraful de climax, asa ca trebuie facut cu grija: ba cu crime se rastoarna crimele, bratul inarmat este singurul care garanteaza viata, Europa si Occidentul din care cu totii scriem s-au fost nu facute, dar salvate si intretinute pe bani si armate americane, iar daca nu ne place sa ne gandim cati au murit ca noi sa avem libertatea de a nu ne gandi la cati oameni au murit cu rezultatul scontat ca noi sa putem sa ne gandim, care rezultat a fost si obtinut de altfel, ar fi cazul sa nu uitam inca in exact care situatie ne gasim.
anume aceea ca iubitii mei crestini - si ironia asta este sincera - nu se ocupa cu teologii politice, ii iubesc pe dusmani si pe genocizi, asa ca nu s-ar chinui, a la carte, cel putin, avant la lettre, sa diferentieze intre Saddam si noi, nu in presupusii ochi ai domnului (despre care, stim din cartea aquinatului, stim mai degraba ce nu e, decat ce e...). Asta cat priveste religia dominanta in occident, oricat ar insemna.
Fata de asteptarile care inca asteapta in carti, nu avem decat parodii de democratie, dar e suficient si cu acestea, cel putin suficient cat sa scriem si noi carti cu asteptari mai mari, despre care e rezonabil sa ne asteptam ca si ele sa astepte urmatoarele generatii de oameni cu asteptari care, da, asteapta (ceea ce, sa fim seriosi, matematicianul grupului, nu sunt niciodata certitudini, spre certitudine nu te misti asimptotic, ci esti ajuns acolo sau pleci de acolo, nici un numar de pasi nu sunt de ajuns, desi banuiesc ca ai putea sa imi explici ceva despre matematica seriilor si fizica marimilor obtinute prin calcul la limita).
Sa luam acum situatia politica si istorica a prezentului. Dreptul international nu e tocmai in regula, situatia economica a globului e cu cat mai dinamica, cu atat mai ciudata (capitalism a la chinoise cine a mai vazut! sau inteligenta tehnologica a indienilor, daca tot am ajuns aici! in contra-partida, santajul sovietic / rusesc cu energie e numai prea previzibil, la fel ambivalenta suicidara a autenticitatii europene, preocupata sa fie anti-americana in loc sa se ingrijoreze de majoritatea mai putin decat civilizata a globului...)
Pentru ca civilizatia nu se raspandeste la miliardele care nu au apa potabila sau mancare in regim constant, ceea ce e poate trist - desi eu sustin ca nu e -, dar arata macar anumite multimi, mari, previzibile, sunt complet in afara discutiei despre civilizatie si drept international. Asa ca, intr-adevar, dintr-un numar foarte mare de puncte de vedere, discutia despre ce e mai bine este elitista si exclusiva (spre exemplu la aia care nu mor de foame sau alte griji destul cat sa se agraveze estetic - si, cel putin pe parti, cu adevarat reusit - despre, sa zicem, S.Hussein).
Iar daca suntem sau nu dispusi sa folosim arme ca sa tinem oamenii care mor de foame departe de mancarea noastra - oare cine isi mai pune aceste probleme elementare cata vreme definitia economiei este si ramane sa fie gestionare a unor resurse limitate intre nevoi nelimitate! - este actual si relevant cata vreme problema supravietuirii e pe masa, iar in cazul supra-vietuirii nu exista decat o forma de eleganta, anume simplicitatea, care nu rimeaza cu manusile.
Despre daca e bine sau rau sa omori este de discutat - ca i s-a fost pus streangul de gat e neimportant si neinteresant si nu e problema noastra, ci in prima si ultima instanta a creatorului nostru al tuturora (iar pentru cei care nu au un creator, nu stiu exact a cui e problema, Kant ar zice ratiune, Rousseau i-ar fi luat-o, istoric, inainte sa zica sentiment, asa ca e si cu dus, dar si cu intors, ceea ce in general inseamna ca problema nu sta, ci e in continua problematizare, asa ca despre ce vorbim la urma-urmei, stiu...).
Neavand o baza pentru drepturi universale (zau?) si cat mai fundamentale (care fundament), refuz discutia pana cand imi sunt explicatii banal clare oferite (postularea este inevitabila in circuit logic, asa ca mi-ar fi de ajuns principii si o minima explicare, nu-s lacom). Asta nu atat ca sa minez discutia deja pornita, cat ca sa inteleg si eu ce inteleg cei care inteleg ce au scris aici.
Asa ca am sa inchei anul vechi cu o declaratie frumoasa, in ciuda conditiilor adverse, poate pentru ca tocmai acum are farmec: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all. Chestia a fost create in 1892, dar aceasta ultima forma e din 1954, aprobata de unul dintre presedintii cool, Ike.
titus ai ramas fara medicamente?!? ce cauti liber? treci acasa! geez idiots are really taking over
si acum sadam e in iad cu satan si sunt amandoi gay, ca in south park
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